Corps Stories Innovators S1E2 - Marine Aaron Rice

Corps Stories Innovators Series 1 Episode 2: Aaron Rice - Combat Marine, Attorney, Constitutionalist

Mississippi Center for Public Policy: https://mspolicy.org/

YouTube version of this podcast: https://youtu.be/NCwrOWSI7_E

Corps Stories interview with MAP 7 2006: https://www.corpsstories.com/archives-201402-graham/

Transcript

Rice Zoom Podcast

Corps stories. Ordinary Marines extraordinary lives  

Meriwether: [00:00:09] hey, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us. Corps Stories Innovators, and today we'll get to meet Aaron Rice who is doing extraordinary and innovative things with respect to constitutional law has kind of captured the attention of lawyers around country anyway, relax. Enjoy it. And I'll catch you on the backside.   

It's so good to see you. 

Aaron: [00:00:34] Yeah. Good to see you too.

Meriwether: [00:00:36] Golly. We have a lot to catch up on. 

Aaron: [00:00:38] I know it's been a long time. I mean, it's been, since San Antonio, I guess. 

Meriwether: [00:00:46] Since San Antonio, since I've seen your face live. Yeah. 

Aaron: [00:00:50] With social media, it makes it feel like it hasn't been quite as long though. 

Meriwether: [00:00:54] I know it because I keep up with your family and one beautiful child after another arriving on the scene.

Aaron: [00:01:01] Yeah. They 

keep coming. 

Meriwether: [00:01:02] I love it. I love it.

Let's see a little catch up. So the last time I think we talked was when we were trying to get, an award, increase for somebody from MAP Seven. and I think that that got after our party became a little bureaucratic and I kind of, was kind of out of the mix after that. But, I learned something about you then, and that was what an advocate you are.

I think that when we met. When we first met in San Antonio, you were still an undergraduate. Right. So tell us, so take me through the chronology since then. Like yeah. When you graduated law school, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 

Aaron: [00:01:49] Yeah. So, when we met in San Antonio, at the reunion for MAP Seven, I was still an undergrad.

I had, I had. Gone on my deployment during undergrad, I'd actually joined the Marine Corps and deployed while I was at Mississippi state university. So I joined a reserve unit. And so I had done my freshman year of college. and then I went to bootcamp. Then I came home and during my first semester back at Mississippi state is when my unit got called up.

And, and,  we started gearing up for our deployment. And so I'll deploy direct with basically three semesters of college under my belt. And so yeah, when after the San Antoinio reunion, I came home just basically finished up undergrad, went straight from undergrad to Ole Miss law school. Which again, a plan all along or at least something I'd been considering all along was law school. and from there, left law school were not during law school. I was very interested in constitutional law. I actually, that's where I first became interested in constitutional law. I was in law school.

And, I considered at the time joining, some kind of national, public interest law firm that did constitutional law, and, and was really thinking about that very heavily. but by the time I got out of law school, Kelly and I had had our first child and, we definitely wanted to stay in Mississippi and put down roots and there weren't any constitutional litigation centers in Mississippi that really did what I was interested in doing. And so,  as life would have it, and I'm very glad that it did work out this way. I stayed in Mississippi. I went into private practice, with,  two different, large, defense law firms, for,  about eight years. And so with one of them, I did a lot of insurance defense litigation and with another.

I'm focused on representing pharmaceutical companies and mass tort litigation. so have done that for quite some time. And then, while I was doing that, a, a, a group, Mississippi justice Institute who I'm with now, they got started in 2016. And so, I was really excited to see that group get started.

It was a group that did that kind of things I had always been interested in. and so I was at the time interested in supporting them and kind of. Cheering them on and hoping that they were able to do good things. And, again, as life would have it, within about two years of the Mississippi Justice Institute getting started, they were looking for a new director.

My name came up and I interviewed for the job and wound up being asked to come head it up. And so I was very glad to take that opportunity and come over here. So 

Meriwether: [00:04:20] It grew very quickly. It sounds to me like in three years, maybe that organization grew. 

Aaron: [00:04:27] Yes, it has grown very quickly. And  it depends on what you mean by that growth because, staff-wise, we're, we're still fairly small, but in terms of our impact, we've grown a lot and when I say fairly small, it's it's me. I'm a one man band right now. and I recruit, attorneys in the private sector. To help me with all of my cases. And so, that's kind of our go to business model right now. We are planning on, on growing this next year and hiring a second staff attorney. But yeah, it has, the impact has grown and it's been really neat to be a part of that.

So that the group that started in 2016, like I said, and the director at the time,  really had to focus on,  getting the organization together, getting the funding together for it. kind of selling the idea. And as I've mentioned, I mean, this was the first group like this in the state of Mississippi and, and really, there's not many groups like this around the nation.

And so it was kind of a new concept to people. And so,  the, our original director,  spent a lot of time getting the organization put together and getting just the funding and the group off the ground. And so. when I came in, we had the concept and we had some of the funding we needed.

We did, but we really had not had a chance to prove the concept yet. And so it's been really great to, to be a part of that and actually bringing these lawsuits and winning several of them and being able to kind of show people in Mississippi and our supporters, but what this was that we were trying to do.

And now people really understand it a lot better. If people are getting excited about it. And our,  our, our donations are increasing, our volunteer attorneys are increasing. So I do feel like we are on a path to growth and success. Yeah. 

Meriwether: [00:06:04] So tell me, tell me, what is the hypothesis? What is, what is the theory that you've been testing so successfully?

Aaron: [00:06:11] Yeah. So it's, we're a constitutional litigation center of public interest one. And what that means is that we represent clients for free when their constitutional rights have been violated,  so we have to raise money to do that. And then,  have an on staff attorney, such as myself to partner with somebody in the private sector and  really the hypothesis.

So to speak, like you mentioned, it's really just the focus that we have. And so we've got.  a focus that you don't necessarily see in every other constitutional litigation center that might exist out there, like,  the ACLU or Southern poverty law center or some group like that. So, we're focused on economic Liberty, and we we've litigated cases in all of these areas and we will take cases in other areas as well, but.

Well, we really have a preference for economic liberties. So that's what we call the right to earn a living, without,  unnecessary government intervention, free speech, property rights issues, school choice issues. We've litigated that as well. gun rights issues and Mississippi, that's something that's very important to Mississippians.

Religious liberty, excuse me, religious Liberty cases as well. And so it's really just, the focus is what's different, but you don't see that focus a lot in public interest litigation. 

Meriwether: [00:07:21] It's really an innovative way to address the law. In other words, these are not kinds of cases that are unfamiliar to the public.

They're just being handled from a constitutionality angle is that what I'm understanding? 

Aaron: [00:07:41] That's right. And  ultimately that the goal for a group like us for a constitutional litigation center. such as ourselves is to, to move the precedent, in the courts and the direction that,  in our, in our conception is a favorable direction.

So in other words, in other words,  expanding the protections that are afforded under the constitution, and this would be under the 14th amendment to the United States constitution, and then every state constitution as parallels to this, but. For example, expanding the protection under that provision for the right to work.

And so what that means is when the constitution says you have a duty process right to liberty, and we want to gain gain precedence in the court. And, and, and in the courts in Mississippi that recognize that right. And recognize it as a strong rights so that, the government, and this is what it really all comes down to Meriwether, is that there is that, that, this is why I was attracted to this opportunity is that,  America, as  and we both agree is, is a great country and a big reason for our greatness. Is that our founders recognize the need to limit our government. So the innovation of Americans and their entrepreneurial spirit and all of that could be unleashed.

And they did that primarily with her our constitution, which did several things. One of which was to divide. power between the branches and to,  limit the government that way. But they also limited the government with the bill of rights and several other provisions of the constitution. And the whole, really one of the main purposes there is to allow Americans to be their best.

And, and in some respects, we get away from that sometimes. And our government does intervene more than it should more than our founders might have a conceptualized what the government should be doing. And so what we're trying to do. Is to assert those rights, to be an advocate,  a lot, especially when you're talking about the constitution, that only gets enforced through the courts and it's expensive to hire a lawyer to enforce the constitution.

And so it doesn't always go in forwards. And so.  if you're talking about,  the rights of, of, a large business or other special interest groups out there,  they, they've got lobbyists, they've got high powered lawyers and they're going to be just fine. They're going to make sure that the government.

Does what they want them to do, the legislative branches, the political branches, or even the courts. but when you're talking about the rights of the people, the things that are just in the constitution, that we all appreciate, those don't always go in force. Because again, you need an advocate that will, that will go into the courts for something that may not be worth any money.

Okay. One of these cases may not involve damages, may not involve.  it'd be an ability for an attorney to really make money on the case. And so you need a group like ours willing to not be incentivized by the profit necessarily, but more in defending the constitution. And so that's what we're trying to do, and we're really trying to move the precedents in the courts.

In a better direction than we feel like they've been going for the last 90 plus years. 

Meriwether: [00:10:35] Well, so there's a couple of things that I wanted to unpack. One was I've followed a case that your office took on for a young woman who. I had a, a little hustle aside business, not a big organization with many employees, but just a small, tiny, fairly earning, I Prout grooming business and she was a student or some that age group, and she was a woman of color.

And I remember thinking. There is no way she would find an attorney, if it weren't no, to support her with this, it seemed like some ridiculous mandates the state laid down on her version of eyebrow grooming. Yeah. So, it really illuminated for me. Wait a minute. So I had no idea. I had no idea that there were those kinds of restrictions invented to impact a tiny little business.

Aaron: [00:11:47] Y ou're exactly right about that, that case our client is Deepa Batara, she's, she's just a great person.

And I was just on the phone with her the other day talking about her case, but, but, just to kind of give a background on what the facts of her case are for your viewers. she, Deepa grew up in Nepal, where she was very familiar with a form of eyebrow grooming or other facial hair grooming. called eyebrow threading is an ancient technique over there.

And it really just involves using two strands of cotton thread that you kind of loop around your fingers and form across with the thread. And you manipulate your fingers in such a way that the knot moves and just pulls hair out is very, very simple, very safe. You don't even touch the customer when you do this.

But it's actually gotten very popular in the United States. People prefer it to waxing and tweezing and other things like that. And so. Deepa saw an opportunity there, because nobody else was doing this in Mississippi and she was doing it for some of her friends and it really caught on while she was in school and she she's very entrepreneurial and she saw an opportunity to go out and start a business.

And she did that. And, And was,  doing very, very well with the business within a year, she had hired four employees and opened a second location and she was doing all this fosters and full time student on a scholarship as well. And, and they,  a resident assistant for her dorm. So, again, just a very hard worker, entrepreneurial person.

And so. but what she didn't know is that in Mississippi and in some other States, and this is, this is something that we see very commonly it's not limited to Deepa's case is that we have a lot of regulations here that tell you what you can and can't do when you run any kind of business. And, a lot of times those, those regulations and those laws are not necessarily designed.

They might be couched in, in terms of kind of protecting the public health or public safety. But the real story is that groups, special interest groups I can say, have, have learned over time that by increasing barriers to work, that it will benefit them. And so groups will get together and ask the government. To increase the requirements to,  the educational requirements or licensing requirements to get into various professions.

And they'll do that to a point where it gets absurd. You're talking about, for example, in Deepa's case, this is something that is completely safe. It's existed for centuries in Nepal. She's been doing it her entire life. You can teach somebody how to do this technique in about five or 10 minutes. Now they can get better at it over time, but we're not talking about rocket science here.

And that's all she wants to do is eyebrow threading. She doesn't want to cut people's hair. She doesn't want to shave people's faces with a straight razor or anything like that. That's all she wants to do. And, in order to do that job, she would have to spend about 10 to $15,000 going to beat his goal and spend 600 hours in training at beauty school.

And, and the kicker is that not one minute of that beauty school training will teach her anything about eyebrow threading because our regulations don't cover eyebrow threading in Mississippi the curriculum doesn't teach eye brow threading the curriculum doesn't teach eyebrow threading. So despite the fact that that's all she wants to do, she can't actually go out and do it unless she spends 600 hours of her lives and 10 to $15,000 to get irrelevant training.

And so that's a point and. In our conception, when the government has exceeded its constitutional authority to regulate for public health and safety, they've gone so far in that case. It's so absurd that it violates the constitution. And so, but there are lots of examples of that. This is again, not limited to Deepa.

Meriwether: [00:15:23] Now, how did she find you?

Aaron: [00:15:25] She, she was, she, you mentioned earlier, that I was an advocate. She is also an advocate for herself and it was very interesting. She. felt,  even though she was somewhat new to, to America,  she felt the injustice of this when she was shut down and didn't feel like this was the America that she had grown up learning about.

And surely this could not be the case,  And so she went to the board of cosmetology in Mississippi, on her own. And kind of had to figure out how to do that, how to get on a docket at a, at a government meeting and how to show up and all of that and came and kind of pled her case, to the board of cosmetology, trying to get them to deregulate this practice.

And, and she was not successful there, but, she learned in conversation with others there that really, if you're going to do anything,  and especially in the state of Mississippi, sometimes you've got to bring a lawsuit. And so she,  researched on the internet did things like that at the same time, one of the roles I've filled as the director of the Mississippi Justice Institute has tried to try to get the word out about what we do.

And so up here on radio and TV and things like that, And so while she was looking for an attorney to take our case on, she also happened to cross,  some of my content that was out there and she really just reached directly out and, and asked if we would be interested in helping her. And of course we were very interested in helping her and that's why we, we filed that case. 

Meriwether: [00:16:49] Now.

I have to kind of from knowing you and knowing the timeline so well, I have to wonder if the timing of your service, although you were not in theater long because of your catastrophic injury, if your service overlapping your, higher undergraduate education, but more your postgraduate Juris, doctorate, plan  influenced your experience of seeing people in the middle East, seeing people who lived in other cultures that are so very different and governmental structure than our country, if that influenced you at all your Marine Corps service. 

Aaron: [00:17:38] Yeah. Well, I think it did in a lot of ways,  some,  for one thing, it really just kind of in it for me,  I joined the Marine Corps because I felt like my country needed me and it was,  September 11th happened my senior year of high school and that's when I went out and went to the recruiting station.

And so,  having that opportunity and serving alongside the great guys that I was able to, that,  very well on map seven. I'm saying the sacrifice that many of them made and, and many of them making the ultimate sacrifice. I think that just for one thing, just see me and me desire to, find other ways to serve my country as well, once,  our deployment was over. and, and it, it also did, like you mentioned, it exposed me to just a wide array of people,  whether it was people here in America who weren't from Mississippi and were from New York or San Antonio or wherever, I think was just a good growing opportunity for me as a young man.

And then it did,  like you said, being in Iraq, I think did also helped me appreciate, even more than I did at the time. , how great our country was and why it was so great. And the things that we had that didn't necessarily exist everywhere around the world. And,  just like we started early in this conversation about,  the limits on government power that we have here.

Whereas,  in Iraq there was,  more of a dictatorship. And then, and then of course that led to  ultimately people like me being there and then an insurgency in a, in a vacuum and an,  and so, just seeing how, not everyone in the world lives with, that the blessings that we have, the rights we have, the system of government that we have, that, that in my view is, is a, just a genius, design and that, and that it's not guaranteed that if.

People like you and I today don't appreciate it. And aren't picking up the mantle to defend it and continuing on the tradition that is not necessarily guaranteed to last and to stay this way. And so, yeah,  that's a long answer, but there's a lot of different ways. I think that yes, my military service and.

Going to Iraq and deploying with map seven, I think did in a lot of ways create a lot of other interests for me. 

Meriwether: [00:19:46] So just to be specific, you were with Third Battalion, 25th Marines, Fourth Marine Division, and your particular platoon    was Map Seven. and so it also makes me think about, Not only is the approach to resolving these constitutional issues in so many ways.

Almost every, every law can quickly harken back to the constitution. And in so many ways, many lower court rulings are, are inconsistent with that. But I love that you just are calling it what it is rather than getting stuck in the Mar when you described that it was not actually, politicians, regulation that interfered with your client from Nepal.

It was the, business groups so lobbying groups of some kind who had invented so much regulation and, and that is news to me that I hadn't even considered that. So you're revealing that. Now the other thing that I find interesting in talking to you today is I'm realizing that it's actually social media, perhaps the internet that connected you to her.

And I wonder how well the age of technology, is, promoting what you do and furthering ...

Aaron: [00:21:18] It has. And  what, so one of the, one of the things that has helped us a lot is that we have, gotten, you mentioned earlier kind of the growth and the, the,  just advancement and the recognition of our group and that has been phenomenal. One of the great successes that I'm proud of to see it from our group is that we do have, kind of a definitely yeah statewide recognition at this point. And we're even breaking into kind of a national recognition as well. And, and for some of the we've done and some of the media coverage that you may have seen from some of the work we've done.

And so,  I think of us as a state based, constitutional litigation center that has.  kind of a national reach at times. but so the tradition traditional media outlets have, have kind of,  I think semen, yeah. R R right. The mission within the state. And so there are a lot of people who know of us from that.

And so,  will recommend us to others mainly because they read about our cases and in the newspaper, or see us on the local news or things like that. And so that's been great, but you're right. That,  with social media,  and that's getting that is actually getting harder and harder to do these days.

You may be familiar with that, but, the, you have to pay to do it. And,  the reach is limited sometimes. but it does,  it can also go kind of viral in some senses. And so if, if a story really connects or a case really connects with the public, then it can spread through social media as people share the story.

And that's what I have found is that a lot of times. The cases we take on really do connect with your, your everyday person and they get shared a lot. And so even outside of traditional media, which,  as you probably know, too, as, as just is kind of on the decline these days, it's, we've still been able to, to get kind of have both have the recognition within traditional media that, that gets us some kind of word of mouth referrals, but also just, Content that is widely shared on social media and that potential clients will sometimes just stumble upon on their own and contact us directly. So we've had, we've seen both and it's been, it's been really encouraging. 

Meriwether: [00:23:21] So that brings me to where you would like to go from here. So it's a nonprofit organization, but, in my experience, having this nonprofit publication for so lon g there are a lot of governmental restrictions to growth for nonprofits.

And, right now I'm sure you're aware that I'm studying over at the London School of Economics, trying to figure out in a postgraduate program, isn't there some way to do both. Isn't there some way that, a lean organization can grow without governmental restriction. 

So not to go down that rabbit hole here, but when I think about your organization growing becoming more, not only exposed to, other other states, but their interests. What about, sort of mirroring copying your programs in their state?  And, and so I wonder about , what is the plan? 

Aaron: [00:24:29] Yeah. So,  you're exactly right, that, that, there are a lot of barriers but we do have kind of a vision and it's a very ambitious one. And so,  we'll have to see if we can live up to it over time and it's a longterm project and won't happen overnight. But,  we're kind of in the phase right now, still. Focusing on Mississippi and trying to see met our, our position as the constitutional litigation center in the state.

And so for now, we're we, I mentioned earlier, we were going to try to hire a staff attorney to help with our case load this year. And,  we'll continue to kind of just grow it within the state of Mississippi, but at some point.  in the next five years we would like to start expanding to other states and, kind of becoming a regional, constitutional litigation center.

And,  like you said, that can happen various ways. I mean, we would, we would have to hire attorneys who were licensed in those States and it probably would be, kind of a cell type operation where you would have,  an office in Alabama or an office and, Georgia or wherever the case may be and we would probably,  have to change our, our name at some point, because right now we're the Mississippi Justice Institute but yes, at some point there's, there's definitely room for growth here. There's room, to do what we're doing, which as I mentioned earlier,  there's not a whole lot of groups that do this and there are some, and there's some very successful ones, but especially on the state level, when you're not talking about a national organization with a national reach, that might be,  based in Washington D C or something like that, when you're down on the ground, where a lot of these cases are down on the ground in a state, and you're connected to that state.

So you get, you see opportunities that a national organization wouldn't necessarily,  being able to connect with because you have an office there and  people there, and we talked just a minute ago about word of mouth and things like that. Going on local radio,  in that state and knowing those media outlets in that state and just having a professional there, who's got a network of his own.

And so, with our model, it's, it's very down on the ground in a state and that's what we're doing here in Mississippi. And we are having success with it, like you said. And so I think. That there's room for us to replicate this in other states that don't already have it and to grow it, to grow our organization, to do that.

And so the vision is at some point, for us to become kind of a regional constitutional litigation center that covers, either several states in the Southeast or maybe the entire Southeast and, and just to keep going from there. 

So two, two things. One is. I keep thinking about that journey from being a young Marine, to this.

And I,  I'm so inspired by you and your wife. I have to say, I remember when we met in 2006, and  I don't think you were completely. That was almost exactly a year, maybe a little over a year since your entry and. I don't think you were completely healed, although you were out of the hospital and, but you had been in the hospital a long time and you had married just before you deployed.

And Kelly was, came from Mississippi to Bethesda to be with you the whole time and  all of her... She has a beautiful voice and she writes these the social media posts. I mean, I hate to call them posts because her writing is so outstanding. And she is able to express sort of your lifestyle, your life journey in such a way that is very unique and influential and positive.

And so I keep thinking like she does. She connects so much back to your time and ethics, moral code that you probably went to the Marine Corps with, but certainly were entrenched in the Marine Corps and how that's brought you to here. 

Yeah. Well, well thank you for all of that. That's very nice of you to say.

And,  we, we talked earlier about kind of entrenching some of the values there in the Marine Corps and solidifying those. and it, it certainly,  I think my life path has been very different than most people's and, and that,  includes up into the very recent past.

And so,  for example, of that is that,  when this job came open and it was something that I was very interested in, as I mentioned, and had always been interested in this area of law. but I was, I had been at a very large law firm, for quite some time, in a very, very hard practice group, to earn your way in and was up for partner at the time and my law firm, which is, which is a big payoff that you've been working towards for,  seven, eight years when that happenned.

and  was just. Was about to cross that threshold and was,  very, very much looking forward to it. But then this opportunity came up, to,  which would involve leaving a law firm that I loved. I loved the partners that I worked with there.  the, even though it wasn't constitutional law, so to speak,  I enjoyed the work and loved the firm.

I was very invested in the firm, and had put a lot of work into,  getting where I was in that firm. And. And so,  I had to walk away from all of that, that I'd invested a lot in,  to go do something else that I was passionate about and that I felt like would make a difference in a way that, was unique and that night everybody would necessarily have the interest or capability to do.

And then I felt uniquely positioned to do. And so I kind of felt a,  a calling, so to speak, to, to do that. And so,  back to what you're saying about joining the Marine Corps and all that, I think that, is, is maybe, it could be a defect of mine. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but, but yeah,  when, when.

When, when I felt passionate about something and I feel like I can make a difference that, a lot of times I'm willing to carve a different path than everyone around me. And I think that does harken back to the Marine Corps. And,  I mean, there were a lot of people who couldn't believe that I was leaving,  at the time I was leaving at this stage in my career that I was leaving.

And so, but.  they understood and they supported me and were happy for me. But, but they've also,  since that time, as you mentioned at the top of this interview, the, the organization has really taken off and exploded so much that I think a lot of people who didn't quite understand at the time why I was leaving and why would they leaving for that?

Really have now come around and see,  wow, this is really something neat and special. And we had no idea,  what this was when you were leaving for it, but now we really see what a difference you're making in the state. And,  we're proud to see that, that somebody, one of our colleagues has been able to, to leave and go make that difference. So. 

Meriwether: [00:31:28] I love it. I completely love it. And that's, and that's what the, the series really is about is Marines who have. Sort of kind of broken away from the expected path, even their own expected path to do something that they knew was the right thing to do. It involves risk. It involves choices, even when people like you have, you know, you have a family dependent upon you. Thats the roll of the dice with respect to that security for them. But I also think that you have an outstanding support system, even if it's just Kelly. Yeah. Because she's definitely your biggest cheerleader. Yeah. 

Aaron: [00:32:11] Yeah. The bait, she had to be willing to roll that.

Those dies with me and, and, and it was a process,  what I mean? As you can imagine,  a large law firm for a nonprofit job and just trying to kind of,  make that work and kind of do the things you need to do to make it work. I mean, it's, it took a while for us to work all of that out.

And it was definitely not an easy road at times. And so, like you said, it does, it is important to have a support system like that. When not when I joined the Marine Corps, Kelly told me to do it,  and we were,  not married at the time, but we're,  had been dating for five years and we're definitely planning to get married. And she knew that I wanted to do it and would always want to do it. And she told me to. And so not everybody would have,  not every future wife or even husband would have done that and been that supportive. And so she was supportive. I've made them, she was supportive of me when I decided to walk away from a lot to go do something else that I was passionate about.

And you're exactly right about that if without that kind of support system and somebody who's a cheerleader and is willing to kind of walk across coals with you every now and then,  you can't, it's, it's, it's not as easy to go out and do those kinds of things. 

Meriwether: [00:33:23] That's right. And I, I think about some of her posts when she talks about  she makes light of a lot of things, which is a sign of an outstanding writer. So she makes it a complicated thing funny. And so I remember so many of her posts saying, doesn't everybody he's husband talk about the constitution over dinner? Doesn't everybody's husband talk about the constitution on a Saturday night in front of the barbecue?

So. it's,  , t was clear and clear to me, just, even through her social media posts that this constitutionality constitutional law was becoming,  really your,  your work in life. And as you say, there's so much of it to be done for heaven sakes here in Virginia, we've had, we had 200,000 people March on our state capitol. I know there, aspects of, of gun laws that  are very unreasonable for a completely rural state. I mean, 90% of the geography of the state is considered rural. So, and, and these were peaceful protests, but Aaron, it was the only option the citizens of Virginia had, because nobody could afford even collectively really to take on the government.

This way is a bit very expensive to fight. So,  even locally, but in everyday news., if you were to have the budget for it, you would be very busy, man. 

Aaron: [00:34:57] Yeah, we are. And that's, I've told people the same thing is that when you're, and I feel like you mentioned Virginia, I feel like Mississippi is a state.

That is a target rich environment too. And so when you're, if you're doing constitutional litigation in the state of Mississippi,  it's, it's really just as much as you can handle because there's plenty of out there. And that's one thing that,  not everybody does understand is just what you said, because  when I was making this transition and especially because of the organization, as I mentioned earlier,  it hadn't really been able to prove the concept yet.

Just kind of put the concept together.  A lot of people had a hard time imagining it,  I remember one of my friends even said, well, what if they're just sitting around, over there waiting on somebody to screw up, twiddling my thumbs, waiting for it. And sure enough, it's been, as soon as I got here,  kind of one after the other and, and, and in reality, it's more, it's the other way, which is people don't necessarily appreciate this either. For every lawsuit, we file and constitutional challenge that we filed we've probably turned down,  10 or more. And, and the reason for that is, yeah, both,  both the capacity issue and yeah, no, so,  just resources being able to litigate that many, but also. And it's one of the things that we're pushing against. Like I said, in our, our precedent that we want to reshape in the courts, but, the deck is really stacked against a citizen who wants to bring one of these kinds of challenges and it's very, very difficult to prevail.

And so,  if we're going to do that for free,  and rely on money that our donors have given to us,  to advance that mission, then we need to succeed,  and we need to, to not waste that those resources that have been given to us. And so we, we have to pick and choose our battles, and make sure that we take on a case that we feel very confident that we can litigate it all the way up to the appellate courts.

And we can secure a victory vote for that client and for all Mississippians would that precedent that can now be applied to them. And in other ways, I mean, that's the thing about. the way our court system works in case law is that it kind of works by analogy. So,  if Deepa, prevails in her case, And we striped down these,  absurd eyebrow threading regulations, it helps more than just Deepa and more than just eyebrow threaders in Mississippi. It sets a precedent that,  things like this, things that go this far beyond the pale, do violate both the both the U S and the Mississippi constitution and a court has declared that. And you can take that to another entrepreneur who has a similar situation and go to the government and say, you better stop doing this because we can sue and we can win. We've got a court precedent right here, and that's very similar to this. So. 

Meriwether: [00:37:36] And I understand, I understand that precedents really are the bedrock of all progress this way in the same, in the same way as a scholarly article, based on a complex study is the, is the bedrock for, progress in medicine.

So it's I, so what you're saying is essentially you have to choose them, but they have a ripple effect. They have an exponential effect. 

Aaron: [00:38:08] They do. 

And there's really two business models. When you're doing this kind of work is you can be, you can be a legal aid center or you can be a constitutional litigation center and where the lab.

And so, and that, and that's hard because I have to tell a lot of people know that a lot of people that I can't help them, that I've liked to help, but we have to focus on because we've chosen to be a constitutional litigation center. We're trying to set to set precedents and that will help more than just those, that one individual.

And in the aggregate, we help a lot more people by having that focus. But that means that not everybody that comes in the door that has a problem, that we may even be able to advocate. And,  we might, we might be successful, in convincing,  a government agency to stand down for example, and maybe some were maybe.

Even making an exception or something like that, but it wouldn't necessarily. Result in,  a fifth circuit,  precedent coming out of this. we have to look at that and say,  that's time that we can't spend doing that now. And we're, we're happy to help people find resources to do that.

I give people advice on how to do that all the time and arm people to be their own advocates, to try to do things like that. or, but even if it's the case that that wasn't needed to be litigated, but we feel like.  I personally believe in the case, but I know, from,  from a constitutional law background that the odds of us actually prevailing on that claim are dicey, or not,  not very good.

I mean, we,  we have to have, we have to feel very strong about it. If we're going to spend,  two to three years litigating this with money again, that our donors have provided for us. And so, but that's just the nature of it. And, it, it, like I said, that's the, it is a challenge.

It is hard to, to tell people that you can't necessarily help them, especially when you're one of the only groups in the state that, that does this kind of work. And so people are looking to you kind of as their last resort sometimes, but you have to also stay focused on the broader mission, which is. If we get bogged down in this, if we get bogged down in being a legal aid clinic and not a constitutional law center, then we won't have the larger impact that 10 years from now we'll make a much bigger difference for everybody in Mississippi. 

Meriwether: [00:40:16] I get it. I completely get it. And I value that. And I, I also value the focus on the mission and not allowing too much mission drift. 

Aaron: [00:40:24] Because as you say, there are, there are other attorneys, there are other agencies out there perhaps you can support.

I mean, I, I had a, copyright infringement accusation from a friend from a French press. organization about a Marines photo. I published in 2003. 

Wow. 

Meriwether: [00:40:44] And they came after me and, and I was terrified, but I,  like so many,  I asked around and found. That under the constitution and the federal law, the fair use allowed me to use that because I wasn't making any money on it.

But the point was, it's a very scary thing when you have a big dog chasing you and, and, ultimately it was a Marine attorney in Boston who said Meriwether, you can fight this, tell the whole story, tell the lawyer for this publisher, the whole story. And I did, and I, and it resolved, it went away.

And so I really appreciate that you, are a sounding board and can give some direction two, but as far as time and resources, you do have to be selective. I value 

Aaron: [00:41:42] that. Yep. That's exactly right. And that's, and that's just what's happened. What your story played out in my office many times too, and not just the copyright.

I mean, with somebody who's, who's got, it is scary, like you said, and a lot of times people are in my office who are scared of what's going on. And so, I definitely do try to do that. Like you said, even if I can't invest.  the full weight and resources of our organization into fixing their problem for them.

I do always you know, send them away with my best advice on how I would deal with this of our gum. And you're exactly right. That,  a lot of times people can be their own advocates,  and, and may not realize that. And if they.  even though I've just had the opportunity to have a conversation with somebody who knows how the system works and what the,  what they need to do, then they can walk away.

And a lot of times,  help themselves with that problem. 

Meriwether: [00:42:31] So yes. Oh, Aaron, it has been so wonderful to catch up with you. 

Aaron: [00:42:36] Its been great. 

Meriwether: [00:42:37] Even believe it. I mean,  it's been so long, but golly, you have used your time so well, 

14 years.

Aaron: [00:42:45] It's a, I can't believe that that much time has gone by, I've got the evidence for it.

I've got four kids running around the house to show that, but it doesn't feel like that long at all. 

It's funny about my relationships with Marines. I've written about it's like a long time can go between in persons, but when I reconnect. It's as if no time has gone by, I don't know what that is about relationships between Marines and I was a sailor.

Of course. 

Yeah. I agree with you. 

Meriwether: [00:43:16] Listen, it's been fun, but let's, let's not wait so long. 

Aaron: [00:43:21] Yeah. Prepared for sure. we'll we'll reconnect sometime and I'm sure we'll have some other stories to talk about when we do. 

Meriwether: [00:43:27] Yeah, that sounds great. All right, Aaron, it's been a pleasure. 

Aaron: [00:43:31] Yeah.

Great. Perfect. 

Meriwether: [00:43:32] Alright. I love and we'll do it again soon. 

Aaron: [00:43:37] Okay, good talking to you, Merwiether. 

Meriwether: [00:43:38] Likewise. 

Bye. 

  So I hope you guys enjoyed getting to know Aaron. I feel certain you did, and listen  check out more innovative Marines and our podcast series Corps Stories innovators and hit subscribe. Thanks and semper fidelis. Bye. 

  Corps stories. Ordinary Marines extraordinary lives.