Corps Stories Innovators S1E9 - Marine Paul Gowin

Corps Stories Innovators Season 1 Episode 9: Marine Paul Gowin - Mustang Marine Leadership Entrepreneur

YouTube version of this episode: https://youtu.be/jAizWEDnD1Q

https://www.paulgowin.com/

Paul's latest podcast: https://www.paulgowin.com/012

Transcript

Untitled Composition

Paul: [00:00:00]  coming in right at the end of stage D dance. That's pretty awesome. Jump in and get this thing started off, right? Are you a fan? 

Meriwether: [00:00:09] I can't even remember the last time I heard that song. It has to be 10 years since I've heard that song. 

Paul: [00:00:15] You can dance. If you want to, you can leave your friends behind.

Meriwether: [00:00:18] You are good at that? My goodness. You have 

Paul: [00:00:21] great. And you've got to make the little S from like the power eighties move.  Cause otherwise I'm going to get excited and I'm going to keep on wanting to talk, especially the connect with another veteran,  

Meriwether: [00:00:31] Marine Corps historian completely values your Marine Corps history.

Paul: [00:00:35] Thank you so much because the Navy Marine Corps team. Yeah, the Navy is kind of pointless without a Marine Corps and the Marine Corps can't do a damn thing without the Navy. 

Meriwether: [00:00:44] Well, the Marine Corps, well, we will say that like on the record, but off the record, that's bologna Marine. We're going to do anything it wants to do, but the Navy likes to make it seem that that's 

Paul: [00:00:56] Oh, we're going to have some great conversation then.

Cause I'm a, I'm a geek with Marine Corps history and it sounds like you're in the same boat. I've written three books 

Meriwether: [00:01:05] about Marine course history. 

Paul: [00:01:06] So. 

Meriwether: [00:01:07] Oh, distant cousin of chesty puller. 

Paul: [00:01:10] I saw that. And George Washington. 

Meriwether: [00:01:13] Yeah. I don't know what that means, but anyway,

10 bucks will give me a coffee. 

Paul: [00:01:17] Starbucks. Yeah. I already been there this morning.  is the language rating? Oh, it's fine. 

Meriwether: [00:01:24] I love it. I'm beginning to fall in love with people like you. I tell you anybody. Who's listening to eighties, Britain music. When we start the podcast, it's going to be a friend of mine.

I can tell you that. Nice tie in. Oh, for the win. 

Paul: [00:01:41] Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah. I'm going to not leave you hanging there. Hi, 

Meriwether: [00:01:44] I got it. I got it. 

Paul: [00:01:46] Now tell me, so PG rating language rating. 

Meriwether: [00:01:49] Okay, that's great. 

Paul: [00:01:51] and then

I was, I was getting screened by this dude that if you said a hell, he was so hyper. Religiously zealous. No, it's unhealthy. No, that's that corps stories 

Meriwether: [00:02:06] around Marines. I was in the Navy to send that, tell you everything you need. Oh, 

Paul: [00:02:10] you were a petty officer third class in the day where it was still uncommon for women to earn their Crow.

Meriwether: [00:02:18] Well, it happens. It happens from time to time 

Paul: [00:02:22] because I was a little older. 

Meriwether: [00:02:23] I was 30 when I enlisted. 

Paul: [00:02:24] So 

Meriwether: [00:02:25] it did help 

Paul: [00:02:27] because it was such a loud mouth. We're going to have so much fun. Love it.  

Meriwether: [00:02:31] you have come up with, some strategy about approaching higher levels of leadership 

Paul: [00:02:39] and 

Meriwether: [00:02:39] in a new way, 

Paul: [00:02:40] completely radical. 

Meriwether: [00:02:42] So I do not care. 

Paul: [00:02:43] Okay. Oh, chesty, puller Island. Who was the I'm just blanking on the Marine major. He signed an undated letter of resignation to the commandant and he went across the Pacific rim, mapping it out.

I think it was Pete Ellis major, Pete Ellis. 

Meriwether: [00:02:58] I don't know. Now I'm ashamed. 

Paul: [00:03:01] He was the master of the plan for the, Japanese campaign. 

Meriwether: [00:03:06] I love it, 

Paul: [00:03:07] but he was also a drunk and, who wasn't.  I was a drunk and that's part of the reason why, look up to this guy. Okay. Yeah, he got out as a Lieutenant Colonel, Pete Ellis, Hancock, Pete Ellis, and he signed an undated letter of resignation to the commandant in case he got captured, right.

That way they could post state their resignation to show that he was free and clear and a simple American civilian at the time 

Meriwether: [00:03:34] that he was no great treasure to them. 

Paul: [00:03:36] Right. And according to a lot of people, he wasn't. And I really, I really revel in the similarities between what Ellis did and what I did.

And it's very similar to what chesty did when he refused to wear boondockers out on patrol. He went to the base gym to go check out some sneakers. Right. And that's what he went on patrol on and had to fight the bureaucracy of this will make us more tactically proficient, be damned your Garrison policies.

Are you, are you a war fighter or not? So that's exactly right. 

Meriwether: [00:04:10] That's exactly right. I love it. 

Paul: [00:04:12] I love it. I have tons of stories. The majority of my career, I served around real officers. and that made me think differently. 

Meriwether: [00:04:20] , go with that. What were you just talking about that for the majority of your 

Paul: [00:04:24] career? Yeah, I served around general officers and because of that, I got exposed to how general officers ask questions at a very, very, very, very, very.

Early age, 

Meriwether: [00:04:35] I'm listening. 

 Paul: [00:04:37] Okay. It's becoming easier to talk about the really great stories from the Marine Corps. Now that I'm five and a half years away 

Meriwether: [00:04:44] from it and listening, why is 

Paul: [00:04:46] this week a perspective?

Okay. This was a full week of perspective. No clients, you are, you are the curve ball. Cause I have a podcast too. And when I saw that you had a gap to fill on labor day, well, shit like that's, that's going to be kind of a high bill to fill. And with you being a fellow vet and especially with I listened to your last episode or most of your last episode, we have a lot of similarities.

I love it.  I am a student of Marine Corps, history of history in general. I really looked and I saw that what I was able to do as a Mustang officer.  it changed the global theater of combat. And how I did it because I had such a chip on my shoulder, ended my career.

Meriwether: [00:05:35] I'm listening. So talk about that. Okay. So let's go, let's go.  Okay. Now that is a great, I have to say 

Paul: [00:05:43] it 

Meriwether: [00:05:44] was Mustang. Hers are my favorite Marines because that means that they are both emergent leaders. And effective leaders. That means that usually, usually they can rise to an unexpected situation and conquer it, but they also can be called into a role for the, a specific purpose.

So, so that means they're, they can. They can lead in a planned way and they can lead in a very unplanned way. 

Paul: [00:06:17] Yeah. 

Meriwether: [00:06:19] So I love that. Talk about that. You were just first, let's go back to the story about how you were around general officers at the beginning of your career, you learned about, 

Paul: [00:06:30] I enlisted into the band.

Which was really great. What was your instrument? Saxophone 

Meriwether: [00:06:36] so far, man? You are. 

Paul: [00:06:39] Yeah. Yeah. I originally wanted to play saxophone because of the owl on Sesame street, but for all intents and purposes, I think was made to imitate Charlie Parker. Yeah, but I remember watching the owl on Sesame street and seeing how cool the owl was.

And when we did the recorder in the fourth grade, fourth or fifth grade, and then the saxophone was in my hands for any of the instrumentalists, listening to your podcast, they'll know that the fingerings are very similar from recorder to flute and flute, the clarinet and clarinet to saxophone. Saxophone is easy.

It is so easy. Well, you push a button, you get a note. I blow air across the Reed. You push a button, you get a note. And then all of the challenges happen. Most other instruments. It's a lot harder to get the notes. Saxophone. You can get the note, but then you have to bring it in tune. You have to bring it in harmony.

You have to bring it to where people actually want to hear it. It doesn't sound like two cats and a feat. So saxophones a little bit tough.  let's for two years drank and screwed my scholarship away. I met a guy, a buddy of mine who will come back back later into the story in a minute, a Brendon Burchard.

Oprah Winfrey's coach. one of them, has worked with Larry King, Arianna, Huffington usher, Olympic athletes. and he and I were in the dorms for two years. I lived down the hall from him for two years in 98 to 2000. His dad's a university Montana. Wow. So yes, that means that half the state's population, all two of us were living down the hall from 

Meriwether: [00:08:08] stop 

Paul: [00:08:08] it.

So I, his dad was a three tour, Vietnam veteran purple heart, a winner, award, or I don't want to tell you supported awarded burned. Let 

Meriwether: [00:08:20] me tell you something. Minnesota has an inordinately high number of top tier combat metal recipient, like pop population, those Northern States. I don't know what it is.

I, I kinda think it's that Northern European background, but anyway, yeah, there's a very high number of Navy silver star and medal of honor recipients from Montana in the Marine Corps history. 

Paul: [00:08:47] Yeah, I met Jean Bell. one of the surviving members of the, Iijima association. He was a member of the Marine Corps league in Bozeman.

Wow. my mentor as a kid, member of the walking dead. Wow. And then when I got out of the Marine Corps, I was on a campground outside of Yellowstone park. And do you ever remember the movie, the sniper. I 

Meriwether: [00:09:07] didn't see it. 

Paul: [00:09:08] It's, it's kind of a one off, but the dude, the main character is from Montana and was captured and had his trigger finger cut off imitated.

As part of the torture I met the dude or who said it was the dude 

Meriwether: [00:09:22] in the campgrounds 

Paul: [00:09:23] and the campground showed me his finger. Now this dude either sold me an amazing bill of goods, but he said enough stuff about marksmanship in the Marine Corps that it, it felt right. It felt like he was a Marine and it felt like he had the marksmanship training.

but I digress Montana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Dakotas, a lot of veterans, a lot of veterans through that area. And a lot of heroism, it's got a point. So I dropped out of the Marine Corps or drop out of college, enlist in the Marines on a music scholar, on a music program. You basically get to write your own ticket.

And so I played and I auditioned high enough that I got to choose where my first duty station was. I played in addition to high enough that I didn't have to go to my AA school. The military music programs are the only programs in the military that you have to already be qualified before you joined everything else.

The military can teach you in a year, like three months to like 18 months, right. Except for music. Right. And so I auditioned high enough that I could skip my school. I chose to go anyway because the bands marched differently.  I, I chose to go to Okinawa, Japan, because in early 2000, I anticipated a war with Korea before Iraq.

I was wrong. by 

Meriwether: [00:10:39] the skin of her teeth, maybe by the skin of your teeth, you were wrong. 

Paul: [00:10:42] Maybe, you 

Meriwether: [00:10:43] know what? We don't know. We don't know 

Paul: [00:10:45] it's true. started the family in Okinawa, married to a local gal there. And, because of trauma from my past. Quickly started throwing up these walls surrendered just completely to alcoholism.

 But that was like how I kind of started, like in my first enlistment, I got stationed in Okinawa. I was meritorious Lou promoted to E three, Lance corporal. I get promoted to corporal at 11 months. I'm interacting with these general officers and these senior officers at these parties that the band would come into play.

Right. We'd go to the General's house and he'd have three waves of Christmas parties, depending on what level of deaths you were. 

Meriwether: [00:11:23] Right. 

Paul: [00:11:24] And in between the, like in between the party, the general wants to just talk and just be. A Marine. Right? So I'm looking at this bookcase inside. This three-star is home and I'm like looking through, cause I'm just like, what books do I need to read?

Like, I want to figure this out from the General's perspective and this voice comes up behind me. He's like, see anything, you know, Marine. And I was like, yeah, this stuff by Tom Ricks here, I've read this book, but I haven't read this one. I've heard this one was okay. This one I didn't really like, and I disagree with it because of this aspect of Marine Corps history.

And he goes, well, if you want to borrow any of them, just let my aid know. And I'm like,

At six foot three, I looked down and it's the mess dress. So there's these three stars that basically poke me in the eye. As I turned them, I look, it's like, wow, you stars. I am talking with the man, the commanding general of three math. And I'm like, absolutely, sir. And this is where a good Sergeant, a good noncommissioned officer, good petty officer comes in swoops up and he goes, you will not be contacting the aid.

But three star said, I can you, the three stars win. You will not be contacting the aid to camp. And I'm like, bitch. And this is where I initially well, among the initials, I'm getting very, very, very, very frustrated. With being treated like a child under some auspice of good order and discipline under some auspice of we're going to hold you accountable to another person's behavior on and off duty.

And it's just, it's. It may have had its place back in the day that, that you lived in squad base, that you took Liberty together, that you were deployed for a year, at a time on a float. There may have been a time for that. I just don't see it with the emerging,  social trends of just ideological beliefs about am I a matter of my, a woman?

Well, I get to decide and I get to tell the Marine Corps that never before in Marine Corps history, is that, has that come up? No. And so this was like one of the very first situations where I'm like, well, this is bullshit. I've got an opportunity to directly direct to the man on the top. And now I have somebody else like cutting my legs out from him.

Meriwether: [00:13:33] Well, what, who is this staff? Sergeant, Sergeant staff Sergeant. Okay. To override what a three searches said. 

Paul: [00:13:40] I mean, because it's, it's this bullshit right here and we hear this throughout a lot of municipalities right now. I'm talking about policy, not politics. Yeah. Good mayors or governors asserting themselves as this as a state of emergency.

And I can make things more restrictive, not less 

Meriwether: [00:13:59] mother fucker. Like 

Paul: [00:14:01] the three star general said I get to 

Meriwether: [00:14:04] contract exactly right. 

Paul: [00:14:06] To make that more restrictive. 

Meriwether: [00:14:08] Well, and exactly. And the point is that that is exactly how. From my perspective. That's a great example of how leadership fails. In other words, is it possible?

The three-star did not know what he was talking about. Is it possible that the three star did not know, did not know where he 

Paul: [00:14:27] was possible, that he didn't see the one Stripe with the like cross rivals. He knows he was talking to the Lance corporal. 

Meriwether: [00:14:33] Is it, is it possible that somehow he does not own those books?

I mean, for the moment, I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just saying that's exactly how. Morale gets broken up. And that's exactly how leadership fails because somebody like you is like so frustrated because they, who do they listen to for having sex. But as you could see, I, everyone could see that, that  whatever is, is now going to be your problem.

If you don't do what he says, 

Paul: [00:15:03] right. Right. And this is where we really get into trouble. Because now as we have seen commanders, this is going to take a critical look at the Marine Corps here. As we have seen commanders on lawfully, cover up hazing and embezzlement, sexual misconduct that these commanders, because of this once noble leadership trait that I hold you accountable to the conduct of your section.

Now that we've interspersed sexuality and ideology among a commander must step back, back away from that refer things over to action, civil authorities and not the, the clown college of military policing, which I was a military police. It was an absolute shit show. I was trained by CID to put your hands on someone, to beat someone for an interrogation, absolute clown show.

we commanders must hand over these cases to civilian authorities and quit this umbrella of protection that we have over our officers and enlisted a little bit of a little bit of a soap box there. I don't know if that's where we want to dig in. 

Meriwether: [00:16:14] Well, I mean, listen, whatever it is that brought you to this place is a value to the audience because I.

It is a mystery to me, a very angry mystery to me. And I like to say it would be a big ass mystery to chesty how we go to hazing and sexual assault being. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think to myself, I wasn't alive when my dog has a fleet and that's why he's he slept in a bit. I like to think that chesty would, I mean, there are examples of Jesse interfering with, Abuse between 

Paul: [00:16:57] the ranks.

That's exactly right, exactly. Right. I think, 

Meriwether: [00:17:02] I mean, I don't know about the gender business, how he would have dealt with that mainly because of the culture he was from, he was from coal, colonial Virginia, and it's a very traditional, and that time 

Paul: [00:17:15] shook his head. He wouldn't, I don't think he would have been able to comprehend it, but 

Meriwether: [00:17:19] he would never.

Have tolerated a young Marine come and say I'm being bullied. Nice. Jesse, a five foot five Chessie would have taken on any six, four Marine and there. And I have to say that I understand the good order and discipline thing about yanking. Somebody who's been accused out of the Marine Corps unit. I can understand how that would be a problem, but I don't understand.

I don't understand how at least temporarily. They're not removed until an investigation is complete. That does not sit well with me, especially because of the trauma, the tact of the trauma on the victim. 

Paul: [00:18:00] Right. And 

Meriwether: [00:18:00] the thing is that it goes on every freaking day. Right now, at least in the Navy. I know that it does, perhaps in the Marine Corps.

I'm with you, I'm completely with you on, on questioning all of that. And I did not know. I can't figure out how is it that this continues to this day? It's so sorry. That was my soap box. 

Paul: [00:18:20] You have some of these leaders that be because of the chip on their shoulder because of what they've experienced in their own past.

They have this chip on their shoulder and now with this authority, They are able to rise beyond what they saw was possible as they are remaining. And I epitomise that, and I came across that repeatedly and a very wise Sergeant major point of these things out to me is like, I recognize it in you because it used to be me, sir, as a, as a first Lieutenant in Afghanistan, just very, very, very wise Sage advice from the Sergeant major.

 And part of the checks and balances is this displacement of what is enlisted business and what is officer business. And I had the, great opportunity for some conversations with this master gunnery Sergeant  and our section in Afghanistan. Where he he'd say, sir, you need to understand this is enlisted business.

And he would draw an E with a circle around it on the whiteboard. And this is officer business over here. And I said, Oh, got it. Let me go ahead and rearrange the picture to the actual reality. I appreciate what you're trying to teach me, but I'm gonna let you know around me. This is reality. And I erased the little circle around the O and I drew it inclusive of enlisted business.

And I said, all of this is officer business. I am ultimately responsible. So for you to tell me it's not, my business is absolutely inappropriate and I will not conform to that master gunnery Sergeant. Now keep in mind. I had a chip on my shoulder. So how I would express these things is not nearly as eloquent or as in service as I am today because I had this chip on my shoulder.

There was still that resentment of senior enlisted Marines bullying me. I tried attempting to baffle me with their bullshit, look up the order Marine. I didn't, it says you're wrong. And it says I can, well, I can make things more restrictive, not less, no, where it's an entitlement that says that I am allowed to, you cannot restrict that.

Go away Marine. You're going to get this other work in detail now. Like, and I'm just like, yeah. So this ultimately led banned a military police driver for a one star. Which meant I was the lone phone, other voice in the car alone set of ears in the car. He would say things to me that he could not say to the aide to camp.

Cause that was a fellow officer to the chief of staff, to the Sergeant major. We had this wonderful relationship and then he. Oh, yeah, it was fabulous. It informs what I mean, we'll do today for CEOs because I've been at that one and three star general level one, two, three start general level.  and then I got to have some cigars with a three star general at the end of the Workday.

I was good friends with his driver and my boss was the deputy commanding general. So the three-star would sometimes be in his office and then be like, Hey man, you smoke a cigar. I do now. And we'd go put our feet up on the rail, on the outside of building Juan and camp foster Japan in Okinawa, Japan, I'd be sitting there having a cigar with a three star general.

So when I accepted my commission, I was assigned to be an adjutant S one officer, normally personnel pay. And there's two major flavors of what I've noticed within this HR role, both in the military. And I love it. You have the reactive coffee maker. Head gets kicked in to where they don't remember the beauty of their own face.

And that person is what you typically see in HR, because they're not part of the business plan they're told, go make a job description, go find this person, come in and settle these disputes. Make sure that nobody's making jokes that are inappropriate. Yup. That's all very reactive HR. Yup. There is also a proactive HR.

The gal that I recommend for people's reading on the civilian side is Patty McCord who wrote this book called powerful. She's the HR genius that put herself in the heart of the business plan of Netflix. I love it. And then she didn't know coding. She knew people. So she was able to shark and attract people from Google and other top Silicon Valley firms and bring them into Netflix when their plans exceeded the known bandwidth, everything that was available to America on the internet.

So Patty McCord is that proactive HR genius. I liked it to be in that camp. Yeah. My job is people I speak on behalf of people. Here's all of these policies that guide me in this. And what I saw repeatedly was senior officers recognizing we don't have enough war to justify enough people. And then they would speak on behalf of the people.

And these are the operators, the three shop, a lot of this, a lot of these folks would have been infantry officers. Yeah, of course. And what I did was I, I would assert myself that you get to speak to the operations. You don't get to speak to the people. I get to speak to the people you put down the requirements.

I take a look at who do we need to bring in? They could advocate to bring in units. I looked within the unit to make sure every single person had a seat and had a purpose. I validated that my boss who trained me was not a validator. She was a coffee maker. She was a gal that I, I I've learned to just love what she did in the Marine Corps.

She was, beyond obese when we deployed. She had her own trials and tribulations. She was one that referenced, told me to go reference the publications frequently. And then when I would show her that what she's doing is in opposition to the reference, I would, I would just be dismissed Pat, on the head go away Lieutenant, like, you'll learn this when you get older.

And so it was, it was ridiculous. So she and I didn't get along. I got fired from her. but because of that, I got put into a different position that was able to advocate for the immediate reduction of personnel in Afghanistan. And it worked a month later, incoming commander. He and I had a cigar cigar together.

And at the end of the cigar, he goes, what would you do if we changed places for a day? And I said, I'd send home the entire unit. And this was the headquarters company to a map it's called the Marine headquarters or a meth headquarters group. Got it. So I advocated that we, we do that. He said, how much planning have you had?

I'm like extensive. He's like, send me the bullet points, send it to him. Didn't think about anything. I was disgruntled, I'd given up faith on the Marine Corps and on, my country. And one month later I'm providing opening remarks for how we're gonna downsize.  so that, and then, When general Neller he was a three star in Afghanistan.

He looked at me one day and he goes Lieutenant. Or we went in this war. I said, no, general, we're not what year? 2013. 

Meriwether: [00:24:57] It was selected 

Paul: [00:24:58] for coming up. Yup. Right before. Yeah. And I'd already encountered his presence before in Lazoon, as he was inspecting some things. And when I saw him in Afghanistan, I was the highest paid doorstop in the history of the Marine Corps Lieutenant, go to the end of the hallway and flagged down the genitals generals entourage.

Cause we were within a. A compound within a compound, within a base. And so like, nobody had thought about how to get them from that point to that key inside. Yep. Haul ass down the hallway to hold over the door over here. General's party. A major Lieutenant Colonel was like, go ahead, Lieutenant. I got the door and I was like, I'm the overpaid doorstop, sir, keep going.

And the general stops and he sees me and asked me, or we went on this warrant. I said, no, we're not general. He goes, how do we win? When I said, send home every field grade and senior enlisted. He goes what'll happen. I said, we'll be done in three to six months. Why? Because those officers isn't listed that would remain are more focused about fighting combat than prolonging and advancing their career.

Meriwether: [00:25:55] What did he say when you said that? 

Paul: [00:25:57] He asked me if I was a Mustang in the middle of all of this too. And I said, yes. And he said, at that point, he just goes, thank you Lieutenant. I said, you're welcome general. And, that was probably the, the most prolific thing I did. Those two are the things that I'm proud of stuff across a 15 year career near 59.

Why I was, I was confronted with accusations of trees. Collusion with the enemy on being unpatriotic, Lieutenant, you don't know your place, Lieutenant you're, you deal with people, not, not combat go, go Polish up a roster or something. And in some of the things that I did, I so asserted the, the, the role of an adjutant.

Cause that's what I was, was an adjective. And in the history of the Marine Corps, the adjutant is who marked the line of battle. Directed battalion regiment division. You will form the line here for the commanders advance. It is very similar to now to what the ops though would be the operations officer, but this very archaic steeped in tradition, adjective.

That is who I am. According to the authority vested in me from Congress and the president of United States. I have this commission to support and defend the constitution. So 

Meriwether: [00:27:17] what's happened. So what happened when you were confronted with these accusations? I mean that 

Paul: [00:27:23] I should put my shoulder. I just, I just kept throwing it back.

I would call senior officers by their rank and not by sir ma'am and then when they would get understandably upset, I would say something flippant like, Oh no, I am a Gallager. And the rank, I have no respect for you. It's like, let's just be very clear. I am respecting the rank right now. And when one guy was like, don't you mean, sir?

And I said, no, I mean captain, which is why I said, captain, if you need me to say it again, captain, that'd be happy to say it again. Kept right. Cause I'm just like, 

Meriwether: [00:27:52] it's funny, but it's no funny. Okay. 

Paul: [00:27:55] It's it's it was a giant chip on my shoulder. Not only am I going to be right, but I'm going to make you wrong.

Meriwether: [00:28:02] Okay. So, so where did that go? Where did that lead you? Where did that? 

Paul: [00:28:07] Oh, dark places. 

Meriwether: [00:28:08] Cognitive dissonance. Where did that 

Paul: [00:28:11] complete? I got back from Afghanistan. I got drunk and I got fat. I was living on coffee, bourbon, whiskey, and pizza. Like 

Meriwether: [00:28:19] most like most people who came back from. Okay. Yeah. But, so where did that lead you though?

Paul: [00:28:27] Where did that out of the Marine Corps? Back home, moved in with my folks on the brink of suicide. And that's where my buddy from college at that time, 15 years previous. Had an ad on Facebook because I had started listening to some podcasts. And as I'm like contemplating, like where do I go? How do I do it?

Do I write a note to my kids? I see this ad for my buddy saying I got this course with the Oprah Winfrey network. Why don't you buy it? And I'm like, you did what? Like in the last 15 years, if you were able to do this, I know I've got something left in the tank. So I started like really changing how I existed,  because I wanted to have a relationship with my kids there.

They're still in Okinawa. I have three kids now, with my former wife, Okinawa.  Hm. And what I found was that with all of the literature around the power, positive thinking, that's undeniable. How do you get there? And as Marines, we take this crawl walk, run approach that is standardized. That is duplicatable.

That is scalable. And what I saw was in the personal development literature, there's a lot of, well, just think bad bearer, just be more grateful, just be great, grateful for what you can do or what you get to do. And I'm like, ah, that's still not crawl. Walk, run. That's still run. Yeah, who do I, how do I break things down for that person that is standing on the edge of the abyss of depression?

Peering down into the darkness saying I think suicide is more comfortable than what I am currently facing 

Meriwether: [00:29:58] and what I'm not on what I'm currently facing right now. But certainly if it's this bad now it's only going to get worse in the future. So how, how, how did you, so keep talking, 

Paul: [00:30:09] you learn to reengage consent.

That is what is required. And this is something the Marine Corps teaches absent of the hazers absent of the bullies, absent of the people that are hiding behind their rink. I did it. I was one of those people that I found value within my rank, not within my flesh. So in 

Meriwether: [00:30:35] what I call those people, 

Paul: [00:30:37] what do you call them?

Meriwether: [00:30:39] I call them Marine in uniform only. 

Paul: [00:30:41] Ah, ah, 

Meriwether: [00:30:43] yeah. I think that the Marine Corps does better, a better job at selecting people based on their morality, based on their character than any other branch of any military in history, I 

Paul: [00:30:55] think. 

Meriwether: [00:30:56] But there is. So there are so many places where that falls apart after bootcamp.

And what you're describing is, is a far more typical than atypical trajectory morally. Yes. And, and so you were fascinating me because I think there are so many Marines who have, who, who could, who want to come back. To that Marine, they were in their heart, right? When that EGA was placed in their hand. 

Paul: [00:31:31] And your nuanced discipline of your language is exactly what I teach.

They want it, they don't have to do a damn thing already. And this is a lot of the source of PTSD is because I had to shoot that kid. I can't make sense of it. Because I had to deploy for a war that ultimately I found out I did not agree with it, 

Meriwether: [00:31:59] right. 

Paul: [00:32:00] That doesn't make sense. And the make sense cycle gets stuck kind of like an old washing machine that gets stuck on the spin cycle.

As my cognitive loop, just attempts to go into a circular logic. Cause that's what it is. Then through the consent in your language. You're able to step away and divest yourself of that chip on your shoulder. Do you know where the, do you know where the etymology of the phrase chip on your shoulder comes from?

Tell me, 

Meriwether: [00:32:28] Oh, it is coming from a dual kind of thing. I'm like 

Paul: [00:32:31] exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yes, it is very much along the line of, I throw down the gauntlet. Yeah. That's ma days of old for nights. Shakespeare had do your bites, your thumb at me, sir. Yay. I bite my thumb, but not at you, sir. Right? It's this? Do you, are you flipping me the bird?

No, I'm putting a wood chip on my shoulder and coming up and saying, no, you cut off, right? Oh, you knock it off. The knock it off has stayed in our phrase, but not what off? Not the chip off your shoulder. I am not going to knock it off. Quit looking for somebody to knock it off for you. As soon as you would knock it off by him.

It's on like donkey Kong. That's right. When you recognize that in the assertion of your growth and development as a man or a woman now have the cognitive capacity. So align yourself with your language, with your thoughts based on the direction you want to go, that is informed on the past from which you came.

You recognize there is nothing to fear the past that you used to regard as trauma brought you here with the edges, the burrs, the chips, the fractures, the splendor, the gloriousness, the brightness, the brewing and select the whole, all of it is you. So when you can use your language just to come in to say, I want to be a better person.

That note that I wrote at the bottom of my sheet that night, November 12th, 2015, the night that I chose to stay alive was I want to be daddy again, not a father. Again, I'm not going to go donate sperm someplace and become a father defacto. I want to be daddy to my kids because I thought I had gone to this place of being unforgivable and lovable.

And there wasn't the, there wasn't the  expiration timer. The end of the game clock hadn't run out. There's still time. So what I do is I innovate with language. I study language, I study the etymology of phrases, like chip on your shoulder and language, like, destiny and fate. Destiny has a much more higher, act like agency in it that does fate destiny is to take a Stan.

Fate is from Fatu. So just spoken of by the golf, right. That you're responding to, 

Meriwether: [00:34:56] but you're not taking, you don't have agency over 

Paul: [00:34:58] right. Reaction proaction. Okay. So with the power of language, and this is something the Marine Corps teaches at 2101st squad will assault. The Hill in order to, there is no lack of clarity or agency in that.

And when you learn how to repurpose them, these tools that make us so great of a fighting force, you can turn those swords into plowshares. And that's what I'm on now is utilizing these pieces of how do we dial in mindset? How can you use the planning process from the Marine Corps, which is amazing, bake a cake or invade big daddy use the same steps.

How do you do that for a peaceful end? Because that's the only way that the world continues that there is an organization like the Marine Corps ready to come off leash and just very violently swiftly with high moral kill. If we lose those pieces, the noble actions of the Marine Corps turn into murder.

Yeah, 

Meriwether: [00:36:05] but that's not that's exactly right. And that I'm fascinated by this because really what you're describing my, you know, basically surface understanding is you're describing processing. You're, you're adding thought into it. I say my, I say something that may be considered blasphemous here, but I don't think that chesty puller was.

Particularly intelligent, man. I think that he was an extraordinarily sensitive to his instincts Marine. I don't think there's anyone in Marine Corps history who could anticipate the enemy's action in the moment better than chesty for historically speaking the way he responded indicates that he, he knew what was coming.

Paul: [00:36:59] Yes. From the 

Meriwether: [00:37:00] banana Wars to Korea. I mean, in any combat situation, in any environment with any kind of enemy, he was able to anticipate it based on his instinct. I see. 

Paul: [00:37:14] Yeah. Experience, but instinct 

Meriwether: [00:37:16] and that's, that does not equate to, to intellect, but in the end, in the end, it didn't appear he had PTSD. In the end, it didn't appear that he had cognitive dissonance because I think that all along, he knew, look, I'm just doing what has to be done is a response to what's coming here.

I'm just trying to keep the war from coming into coastal Virginia. 

Paul: [00:37:46] It's a very different time, right? 

Meriwether: [00:37:48] Well, not exactly. I think what I'm hearing you say is look. If I can think about this differently, if I can think about what I participated in from a completely different perspective and not overthink it, not complicate, it was a whole lot of other,  I do have to say age of technology, there is so much opinion and we've come so many have come to second guess themselves.

Paul: [00:38:18] You, you, you go and explore why. And I say this, like, you feel the feeling so they don't need to be felt no more. And you use your intellect guide and direct them add emotional journey. So that way your emotions don't Shang HAI the truck. You can use your, I just got done with a seven day retreat. And part of the questions were, why do I lack the discipline of which I am capable at work?

What is required of me to serve at this next higher level,  in exploring those pieces, there are times that stuff comes up and goes, well, this one time you did this and you failed. Oh, well, are you scared of that? Well, yeah. Okay. Can you build something to mitigate that? Well, absolutely. I'm a Marine. This goes to civilians as well.

Well, so one of the things was, the last time I did a LinkedIn massive outreach campaign, I didn't have a good system to like track. I didn't think anybody would respond, but then I had all of this flood and response and I didn't have any way to track it. So I talked with a specific person, and now I'm using a program called Salesforce that I'm gonna track all of these leads differently.

So with each one of those things, I went to this place of, you know what I'm saying, ready to approach the why behind this from a different level of maturity, from a different perspective, enough time has passed that it would be as though I was looking at things from a, a one 80 perspective, because time gives you that lens.

When I came across some of those things that scared me, I kind of, I just said, well, how do I mitigate it now in my present? Because I'm on a mission towards my future. If I stay focused on my past, I'm not moving forward. so a lot of that, a lot of this very specific, I think language training utilizes what we were taught as Marines by and large, the whole military Marines are taught this the, the military planning process.

So it's at a very young range. I remember being exposed to it in bootcamp. so through the use of that language, it serves as a rudder for your mindset. So that way you can steer it in the direction you want to. Good cause that is, that is the nuanced difference. It's not that you have to it's that you want to, and with that consented, willingness, a lot of things can get healed.

Whether it's trauma from when you were four or trauma, when you were ambushed in Iraq or Afghanistan, 

Meriwether: [00:40:29] I love it. I completely love that. I completely love it. I think, you know, one, I talked in the last podcast about how important education was for me when I. Got some relief from PTSE and, you said that education was so important was because I really wanted to be able to think again, you know, I really wanted to be able to have a string of thoughts that would lead me to solve a problem.

Paul: [00:41:02] Yeah. 

Meriwether: [00:41:03] so I've. And I would say that my life is much better because I am better, better educated.  I'm able to think about things so much differently. So basically what you're talking about is tapping the education. You already possess in my right. 

Paul: [00:41:20] It is. And recognizing that if you use it in a use, what is already familiar and what, you know, in a different way, so that way you can get a different result.

Cause that's the biggest thing that I see veterans wine. To do is like I don't have, I don't have other tools to get a different result. And if you're listening to this, I just did the super air quality thing. You don't have to have a different tool. Use the tools you have in a different way. And Marines are fabulous with innovation.

They are. 

Meriwether: [00:41:49] Thank you. Amen to that. 

Paul: [00:41:52] Right. Especially in the junior ranks that before they're just inculcated into group thing. Yeah. Aye. Aye. Aye. I'd say that. That might be a good stopping point. Cause I'm out out of 

Meriwether: [00:42:04] time for this. Tell me where you're going with this 

Paul: [00:42:07] was DePaul. He founded the take command project because empowerment was not enough.

I saw that as a vet and I'm just like, people are trying to teach other people to be empowered. I'm like, that's not enough. Confidence is not enough. Authority is not enough. Planning is not enough. It is that the inculcation of leadership traits of the Marine Corps bestowed on me. Not only through bootcamp, but also officer candidate school and the follow on the basic school with those techniques.

I train people specifically CEOs to take command of themselves from there, they're able to take command of their relationships. And that doesn't mean to be in control. It means to take command of your contribution to the relationship. And then upon that you build how you take command in your business, which again is not to be in control.

It's in command of what you bring to the business, yourself, your relationships, your business, you take command in that order every single time. 

Meriwether: [00:43:03] How, how do you facilitate this, this training, this teaching? 

Paul: [00:43:08] One-on-one consulting some group opportunities, as well as in November, I will be launching the first major course.

I've done some small courses, but this is going to be the robust take command masters course. That's the working title for it right now. And everything's available@paulgowan.com Gow. I N. Dot com. 

Meriwether: [00:43:30] I love it. I love it. Paul, it's been fun. This has been fun. This 

Paul: [00:43:35] is probably going to end up doing this again.

Meriwether: [00:43:37] I'd love to, I would love to, would you like to reconvene maybe a little while after your, your November launch of this and give me some idea 

Paul: [00:43:46] or maybe, or maybe on the, on the, run to it. So that way I can give your listeners a 

Meriwether: [00:43:50] deal, love to love. So keep me in mind. So that'll be right around. So what you're thinking of early or mid.

And so 

Paul: [00:43:58] much is happening in, I drop it. The core state releases on November 16th. That's the really state. 

Meriwether: [00:44:05] Okay, great. So how about if we reconvene around the Marine Corps birthday? 

Paul: [00:44:09] Oh, my gosh. I love it. Perfect. 

Meriwether: [00:44:11] All right. Wonderful. All right, listen, have a great day. 

Paul: [00:44:14] It's been 

Meriwether: [00:44:15] fun and we'll reconnect 

Paul: [00:44:17] soon.

All right. Thank you. All right, Paul. 

Meriwether: [00:44:19] Thank you. Bye.